1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,920 [jazz music playing] 2 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,640 ♪♪ 3 00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:50,600 [man] Max's Kansas City, where is that? 4 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:51,920 Is that in Kansas? 5 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,640 [rock music playing] 6 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,640 ♪ All right, yeah 7 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:03,840 ♪ All right 8 00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:08,680 ♪ Take a tip from me and get Ready for the big parade ♪ 9 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:16,160 ♪ It's the place to be Every night's a happy holiday ♪ 10 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,400 ♪ The kids are jumping around Everybody's doing loop de loop ♪ 11 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,160 ♪ Just a making the rounds 12 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,640 ♪ Like a speed freak In a telephone booth ♪ 13 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,000 ♪ The downstairs is packed 14 00:01:31,039 --> 00:01:33,720 ♪ And the groupies Are all dressed up ♪ 15 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,400 ♪ Upstairs the New York Dolls 16 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,320 ♪ Are kickin' it out Looking tough ♪ 17 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,400 ♪ You've got a Personality crisis baby ♪ 18 00:01:46,320 --> 00:01:48,759 ♪ Down at Max's 19 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,400 ♪ All the boys are 20 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,400 ♪ All the girls are... 21 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,880 [music fades] 22 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,720 [buzzing] 23 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,320 [rock music playing] 24 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:10,000 People always talk about the significance of CBGB's 25 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:12,760 and how important a club that was. 26 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:18,360 Obviously, it was, but I always liked Max's. 27 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,720 [rock music playing] 28 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,079 If you date punk rock 29 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,520 to the New York Dolls 30 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,960 and The Velvet Underground and Suicide, 31 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,200 Max's was there well before CBGB's. 32 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,040 It was a place that had a lot of history, 33 00:02:40,079 --> 00:02:43,480 not just punk rock history but classic rock and roll history. 34 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,400 The cool thing about it, it was the cool factor. 35 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,960 It wasn't the idea of going in 36 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,840 and playing Madison Square Garden 37 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:54,760 because we weren't big enough to do that yet, 38 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,760 and there was a lot of other little places to play, 39 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,480 but Max's was the place. 40 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:00,880 It was the cool place. 41 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:02,840 Max's was kind of like... 42 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,600 as far as debauchery and just, like, madness, 43 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:09,680 it was kind of like as outrageous as Studio 54. 44 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,600 But, like, funky and gross, and poor. 45 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:16,720 It was always sex and drugs at Max's. 46 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,680 So even when it was an artist hangout, 47 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:21,480 it was all about sex and drugs. 48 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,760 It was avant-garde, it was very eclectic. 49 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,000 There were artists, there were writers, 50 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:29,480 and there was music. 51 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:30,800 Things could happen there. 52 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,440 You go some places, and things just don't happen. 53 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,480 It was truly the greatest club, 54 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,960 and I have been through clubs everywhere. 55 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,360 Max's was it. 56 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,400 That was it. 57 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,720 That was joy. 58 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,720 You know, what the group is wearing 59 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,640 is as important as their music. 60 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,600 So yeah, we're super interested when fashion and music 61 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,560 are connected with music and fashion. 62 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,560 That's what was going on. And art. 63 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,760 [woman] Culture and fashion do not come out of nowhere. 64 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:01,800 [tongue clicks] 65 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,840 [rock music playing] 66 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,360 New York is an all-night town. 67 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:18,480 There are very few of those. 68 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:20,880 Actually, in the United States, most places 69 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:25,240 close down around one or two in the morning at the latest. 70 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:28,160 But New York can be open all night. 71 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,360 ["Sunglass City" by The Deadbeat Poet plays] 72 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,400 Mickey Ruskin was a serious man, I would say. 73 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,240 I remember him being kind of tall, 74 00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:44,080 a little bit aloof, 75 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:45,600 right there at the front door 76 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,000 watching everyone who was coming into Max's. 77 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:49,600 He was very, very friendly. 78 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,520 He liked me a lot. 79 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,480 He came to see one of my plays, and he loved it. 80 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,000 So I could do no wrong. 81 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,040 I just used to waltz in. 82 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,200 Prior to the existence of Max's, 83 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,440 New York was populated with discotheques, 84 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,960 with everybody dancing to Chubby Checker records 85 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:08,760 and the whole go-go scene. 86 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,160 At that time, there was no local band scene. 87 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:12,560 Because you live in New York. 88 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,360 Everybody comes through New York, 89 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,760 and none of the local clubs 90 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:21,640 really had anything more than cover bands playing for dancers. 91 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,920 Once word got out of what Max's was... 92 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,560 And part of that was fostered 93 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,160 by the participation of Andy Warhol and his superstars, 94 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,320 who were right down the block, literally. 95 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,159 That's when the original members of the factory 96 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,640 were going there, - Edie Sedgwick, Taylor Mead - 97 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:42,600 and all of those people. 98 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,720 [Jimi LaLumia] So the moment Warhol started showing up 99 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:50,080 with his gallery of theater and film stars 100 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:55,400 and thereby, the in-crowd models started showing up as well, 101 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,040 at that point, it became the talk of the town. 102 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,120 Max's became the hip in place. 103 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,080 [Elliott Murphy] Mickey Ruskin was creating that atmosphere. 104 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,000 He was picky, but he had good taste. 105 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,400 So the people who he would let into the back room, 106 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,720 and that we considered regulars, I guess, 107 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,520 were first the artists. 108 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,200 Mickey was great because Mickey went to every table. 109 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:19,720 Mickey was just one of those guys 110 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:21,480 that everybody accepted as being. 111 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,680 It didn't matter if they were artists. 112 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,360 He was, I think, the art aficionado. 113 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,120 We never paid for anything. 114 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,480 We were just there to entertain, 115 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,960 but the front room was like people like Frosty Myers, 116 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,600 Win Chamberlain, John Chamberlain. 117 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,480 I mean, Max's Kansas City certainly was not a venue. 118 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,000 It was a restaurant in the front, 119 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,560 and in the back, it was the back room. 120 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:52,840 Max's was a place where people who were rebellious 121 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,640 on a bunch of different levels gathered. 122 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,560 [rock music playing] 123 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,000 [music fades] 124 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:07,480 [music playing on TV] 125 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,120 [male narrator] Max's Kansas City, 126 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:10,840 a restaurant near the factory, 127 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,520 is the gathering place for New York's underground. 128 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,000 Almost every evening, Warhol's clan can be found here. 129 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,480 Kansas City functions as both an unofficial casting agency 130 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,000 and a public playground. 131 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,640 Everything in this world is at the same time 132 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,960 both common and pretentious. 133 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,920 Individuals who, once again, 134 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,040 could very well be only copies of their real selves. 135 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,200 [Penny Arcade] Before 1968 136 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,560 was when Andy Warhol was actually at Max's. 137 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,080 After he was shot, he very rarely came to Max's. 138 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,440 And he was shot in 1968. 139 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,440 [Elliott Murphy] And it was smart, you know. 140 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,640 There were smart people there, 141 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,400 they wanted to talk, conversation... 142 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,240 Maybe you can compare it. 143 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,120 The closest thing we had to the round table of the Algonquin 144 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,920 in the 20s was the back room of Max's Kansas City. 145 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,160 [Alice Cooper] It was a great place to hang out. 146 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,680 There was nobody there trying to get your autograph 147 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,120 because everybody was bigger than you. 148 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:14,480 [scoffs] 149 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,400 [Ruby Lynn Reyner] When Max's became really popular, 150 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,720 and I mean, all these movie stars started coming... 151 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,560 Warren Beatty, Jane Fonda came. 152 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,040 And you know, they came to the back room, 153 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:30,960 they wanted to hang out with us. 154 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,720 They told me, "Oh, you got to meet Jane and Roger." 155 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:36,400 She was with Roger Vadim, 156 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:41,280 and they said Roger Vadim had a long, skinny penis. 157 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,360 And they wanted to take as many little... 158 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,160 you know, punk-type 159 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,880 of little superstars in waiting home with them. 160 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,080 I practically lived there. 161 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,960 I would go during the day for the free food. 162 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,360 We would tell Mickey all the time. 163 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,440 I'd say, "Mickey, it's my birthday," 164 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,760 just so he would give us a bottle of champagne. 165 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,880 [Penny Arcade] I started going there in the middle of 1968 166 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,000 because Jackie Curtis took me, 167 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,440 and Jackie Curtis took me in the afternoon 168 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,520 because there was free food. 169 00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:18,680 If it's one thing drag queens want, 170 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,280 it's free food. 171 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:21,960 With big giant salad balls. 172 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,800 We found a couple of worms in the salad. 173 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,840 [country rock music playing] 174 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,200 [Alice Cooper] It was always going to be sort of the Warhol, 175 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,680 the Larry Rivers, the New York artists. 176 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,640 And then rock and roll just came in as... 177 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,440 following that in the second wave. 178 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,640 And then it was... We just kind of took it over. 179 00:09:51,680 --> 00:09:57,160 Well, Max's did not have live music until 1969, 180 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,920 near the end of the winter '69-'70. 181 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,560 Danny Fields brought the first bands in. 182 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,320 There was no intention to have it be a venue 183 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,240 with regular performances. 184 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,320 He brought in Stooges, 185 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,080 Alice Cooper, Velvet Underground. 186 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:18,880 [Alice Cooper] Well, I think the Warhol people 187 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:20,960 brought in the rock. 188 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,720 You know, Velvet Underground. 189 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,760 And I think we were one of the very first bands 190 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:27,720 to play there in 1970. 191 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,120 The police actually came in and said, 192 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:32,840 "You've got to turn it down." 193 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,600 We were very loud. 194 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,920 I mean, most bands went in there and they were half acoustic, 195 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,320 and half, you know... 196 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,040 We were in there like The Who... [laughs] 197 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,280 ...in a room the size of a restaurant. 198 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,240 [Jimi LaLumia] The Velvet Underground are considered 199 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,560 the foundational factor for the New York rock scene, 200 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,160 alongside the New York Dolls, who followed shortly thereafter, 201 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,520 also who were headquartered at Max's 202 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:57,600 for a good part of the time doing shows there. 203 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:59,040 Velvet was something else. 204 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,160 It was a different sound. 205 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,120 So they were like "Pushing Ahead", 206 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,440 Walk on the Wild Side. 207 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,120 That was ahead of its time. 208 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:09,720 I love the Velvet Underground. 209 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,720 I love the Warhol scene. 210 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,040 And we knew the Warhol scene was hanging out at Max's. 211 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,840 And one of my favorite albums 212 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,080 is the live album that the Velvet Underground did 213 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,000 at Max's, live at Max's, 214 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,120 which was recorded on some tiny little cassette 215 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,880 or machine, or little tape reel to reel, or something. 216 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:31,080 But also, we loved Iggy Pop. I loved Iggy Pop, the Stooges. 217 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,360 The Stooges played at Max's. 218 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,320 Each time it seems to get crazier and crazier. 219 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:37,880 Where does it stop? 220 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,600 I don't know, probably some kind of extreme violence. 221 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,680 There was an act at Max's Kansas City a few weeks ago 222 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,960 - Iggy Pop is his name - who cut himself on stage 223 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,000 and ended up with 16 stitches. 224 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,840 ["Going Back to Max's Kansas City" by Joe Sztabnik plays] 225 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:55,840 think Danny Fields and I were the ones 226 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:57,160 that took him to the hospital. 227 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,800 [Jayne County] Iggy had been playing at Max's. 228 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,240 And he'd been rolling around on the glass, 229 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,560 rolling around on the glass that was on the stage 230 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,400 and getting up and bleeding, 231 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,400 just bleeding all over from the broken glass. 232 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,280 Iggy's on stage, and he's rolling around on stage, 233 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:14,680 cutting himself all over, 234 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,520 and people would go, "Oh really? 235 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:18,480 Oh really? What else is he doing?" 236 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:20,760 That was the attitude at Max's. 237 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,240 "Oh, what else is he doing?" 238 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,240 [Alice Cooper] Iggy was not a New York guy at all, 239 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:25,400 he was a Detroit guy. 240 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,120 And I think that's what... 241 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,040 He is animal. 242 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:34,600 He was certainly the godfather of punk. 243 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,200 In Detroit, he'd come out with a pair of Levi's on 244 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,480 and no shirt. 245 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,920 And I mean, he was built great. 246 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,080 I mean, the guy didn't have an ounce of fat on him, 247 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,000 and he was a contortionist, 248 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,000 and he had this kind of street thing. 249 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,440 Guys loved him, girls loved him. 250 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,360 He was-- he had this thing. 251 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,200 He was just sexual up there, 252 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,600 and from what I understand, he was pretty well-endowed. 253 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:00,960 I don't have to say what I understand. 254 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,560 If you lived in Detroit, you saw his penis 255 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,240 as much as you saw his chest 256 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,920 because he would always just take it out, you know. 257 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:10,440 [laughs] 258 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:15,600 [Peter Crowley] And it wasn't until '71 or '72 259 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,440 that it became a regular venue. 260 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,840 That was when the Gaslight Cafe in Greenwich Village 261 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,680 lost their lease, 262 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,800 and Sam Hood, who booked the Gaslight, 263 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,640 asked Mickey, could he use the upstairs room for bands? 264 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:33,040 And Mickey said, "OK," 265 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,600 and that's when they began having regular bookings. 266 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,400 [Penny Arcade] A lot of people who worked in the music industry 267 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:42,640 went to Max's. 268 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:44,440 It was an incredible mix of people 269 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,000 because there was a rebelliousness 270 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,120 that wasn't limited to somebody's behavior. 271 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,360 People were intellectually rebellious. 272 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,120 They were gender-rebellious, 273 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,520 meaning they chose their own gender. 274 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:02,000 [music fades] 275 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,320 [rock music playing] 276 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,800 Yeah, it was the home of-- 277 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,600 it was one of the homes of punk, really. 278 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,280 That's what it was for us. 279 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,280 Yes, the fact that we could read about it, 280 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,720 hanging out with Bowie there, with Lou Reed and Warhol, 281 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,000 and the whole scene going on... 282 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,240 And Brigitte, so-and-so, and all the different names... 283 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:23,760 and I don't know, all the people. 284 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:25,320 [Ruby Lynn Reyner] But I remember 285 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,080 Brigitte used to pull down her pants in the back room... 286 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,440 Or I don't think she even pulled down her pants. 287 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,720 I think she shot Amphetamine right through her jeans, 288 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:35,560 right into her butt. 289 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,640 Yeah, big shot of speed. 290 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,440 And of course, it was a crazy place too, you know. 291 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,280 There were a lot of drugs going on. 292 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,400 Andy Warhol, superstar, pristine condition, 293 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,480 we used to get up on the table and flash our tits. 294 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,040 And Alice Cooper was there. 295 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,760 Alice Cooper, I think, must have lived there 296 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,440 because every time I went there, I saw him. 297 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,640 [Alice Cooper] We were kind of like the first band 298 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,000 that really put really good hard rock 299 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:03,560 with a really good band 300 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,760 together with, you know, the genderbending thing, 301 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,040 and the name, and the glamor... 302 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,040 Glamor, horror, and violence all packed into one, 303 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:15,600 but the songs were good. 304 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,960 I mean, I remember looking out, and there were all these guys. 305 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:20,960 I guess it was the New York Dolls 306 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,920 that were just coming up. 307 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,920 And they watched our show, and they understood, "Oh, OK." 308 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,480 And at that time, Bowie was coming to see us in England, 309 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,600 and he came and brought The Spiders from Mars 310 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,600 and said, "This is what we should be doing." 311 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:37,800 [Louie X. Erlanger] I saw Mick Jagger in there, 312 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,600 David Bowie, and Lou Reed. 313 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,000 A lot of different people would go in and out of there. 314 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,120 ["Magnet" by Stony Sugarskull plays] 315 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,400 And all these people were out every night, 316 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:16,800 between Max's, 317 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,600 and not far away was Harold Black's 210 club, 318 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,720 where you could meet everybody if you were cool enough. 319 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,480 And it was David Peel 320 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,440 and "The Pope Smokes Dope", "Marijuana", 321 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,400 and this was radical things for the time. 322 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:34,520 Yeah, you know, fearless. 323 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,120 [Lenny Kaye] All of Downtown Manhattan was very compressed. 324 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,520 There was a sense that the avant theatre community 325 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,160 was bleeding into the avant music community, 326 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,800 that was bleeding into the avant film community. 327 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,800 All of these people gathered in the back room 328 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:53,640 of Max's Kansas City. 329 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,320 So Max's became a well-known place, 330 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,840 plus it was the Warhol crowd, so it was uber hip, ultra hip. 331 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:00,640 Everybody knew where it was at. 332 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,160 That wasn't like today. 333 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,359 There wasn't loud music coming through the back room, you know. 334 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,280 And Debbie Harry was the waitress. 335 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:10,319 The back room was her foundation for getting started 336 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,240 by making contact with that crowd, 337 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,240 becoming part of that crowd. 338 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,240 She was hard to miss because she was this... 339 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,319 You know, she was this gorgeous blonde girl, 340 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,640 and she was also a Playboy bunny before that. 341 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,200 Max's was pre Studio 54, 342 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,480 and who they wanted to let in and not let in. 343 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,600 I mean, there wasn't a velvet rope outside, 344 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,240 but if you went, 345 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,960 you had to get Mickey's blessing to kind of sit in the back room. 346 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,320 It was really crazy. 347 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:44,240 You'd walk in there, and this table would be Bowie, 348 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,360 you know, Frank Zappa, and da-da-da, 349 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,840 and the next table was George Harrison 350 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:51,640 and da-da-da, and da-da-da. 351 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:53,000 I mean, every table was like... 352 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:54,920 You wanted to sit at every table. 353 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:56,800 There was a lot of table hopping. 354 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,720 You would go and sit in one booth of people, 355 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,160 and you'd see other people you knew at other booths, 356 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,000 and they would know the gossip, "So what's happening?" 357 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,840 "We were sitting over there with so and so." 358 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,920 "What's happening? Is it true he has a little peener?" 359 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,160 "Tell us all about it. We want to know." 360 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:13,720 "What did he say?" 361 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,760 "Is it true that he likes to be shit on?" 362 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,040 You'd meet people in there that you'd never thought you'd meet. 363 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,520 I really liked Andy. 364 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:24,120 I thought Andy was great because he was really unique. 365 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,160 He really did want to take pictures of everybody. 366 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,280 I don't know how many Polaroids he took 367 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,760 of everybody in that room that night, 368 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,520 but he did that every night. 369 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,240 Mickey took care of us. 370 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,040 Mickey did, yeah. 371 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:39,840 The chickpeas on the table. 372 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,880 And if somebody started a chickpeas war, 373 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:45,720 then it was all out. 374 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,080 Bang! You'd get hit, 375 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:49,640 and you'd see somebody on the side go, "Yeah, got you!" 376 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,000 And it might be Elizabeth Taylor. 377 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,000 I remember going there one night with George Harrison, 378 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:57,880 and one of the cool things with him was 379 00:18:57,920 --> 00:18:59,640 there'd be three girls at the other end, 380 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,320 you know, on the other side of the table. 381 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:04,160 He always carried a little pouch of rubies, 382 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,280 and once he decided which one he wanted to be with, 383 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,680 he would put the ruby down in front of her. 384 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,080 And if she picked up the ruby, that was a done deal then. 385 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,560 Well, you know, there were nights I went in there... 386 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,280 And I knew John Lennon. 387 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:23,400 And he was always trying to get me into politics. 388 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,840 You know, John loved politics. 389 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,000 He loved the whole, "We can change the world." 390 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,000 I said, "John, you want to change the world. 391 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:31,520 I'm just trying to entertain them." 392 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:32,520 [laughs] 393 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,840 I remember Jane Fonda, 394 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,840 you know, sitting next to these heroin dealers. 395 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:40,320 But that's what she wanted. 396 00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:44,120 She wanted to be around the lowlifes, 397 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,840 the real gritty New York scene, 398 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,000 which that's what it was. 399 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,360 I was just the kid, 400 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,240 and I would come there with the folks and eat dinner 401 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,240 and pass out, and they'd stay there all night. 402 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,240 Allegedly, they only forgot me once. 403 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:58,800 [interviewer laughs] 404 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,440 That's the story that I have heard, however. 405 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:02,760 And so, consequently, 406 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,920 I'm a second generation Max's aficionado. 407 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,800 [rock music playing] 408 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,040 The Dolls were pure New York, 409 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,200 and they had no problem walking around 410 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,200 in high heels and all this. 411 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,480 And I admired the fact that they took it so far. 412 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,840 Well, there was nobody like them at the time in New York City. 413 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,800 I mean, everything at Max's had been more Velvet Underground 414 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,840 and all the Andy Warhol people, 415 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,800 and this was a totally different scene. 416 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,720 This was a glam scene. 417 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,320 It was not like the Velvet Underground. 418 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:42,760 We were hanging in the same places, the same clubs. 419 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,160 Max's was the den for the Dolls, 420 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,480 That was the sort of headquarters for the Dolls. 421 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,400 And it was sort of amateurish too. 422 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,600 It wasn't like going to see Led Zeppelin 423 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,480 or these bands that were really, like, professional. 424 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,640 It didn't look like it was rehearsed. 425 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,080 It didn't look like... It barely came together. 426 00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:03,640 It was kind of like a trainwreck in process or something. 427 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,480 So I went to see them every week. 428 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:06,880 They had a residency. 429 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,880 And I would go there all the time, 430 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,960 and I kept hoping that they would get better. 431 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,080 We were playing the Coventry... 432 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,640 with KISS and the Ramones opening up for us, 433 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:22,240 and people like that and stuff. 434 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,040 Moving out into the Boroughs, 435 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:25,840 you had the Harlots of 42nd Street, 436 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,840 you had street punk, the early performances of KISS. 437 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,960 You had a sense of seeing growing 438 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,320 that would form a foundation 439 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:41,520 for a very elemental sense of New York rock and roll. 440 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,800 The Dolls were very much emblematic 441 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,600 of that next step that culture takes. 442 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,440 Culture takes a next step. 443 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,160 They embodied many rock and roll traditions within them: 444 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,200 the blues, the kind of three-chord great hit single, 445 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,120 the sense of flash and trash, and having a great time. 446 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,040 They were a great show band. 447 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,720 They reeked of rock stardom, 448 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,560 which meant that they were after what we were after also. 449 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,480 In Europe, they wouldn't be aware of the Dolls 450 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,600 and be interested in their music. 451 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,360 In America, they couldn't have cared less. 452 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,920 They thought they were a bunch of druggie transvestites 453 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,000 who wore women's dresses on stage, 454 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,440 which was not true at all. 455 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,200 A new rock group has surfaced at Max's Kansas City 456 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:32,600 and created a sellout. 457 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,480 [Sylvain Sylvain] Our first album had just come out. 458 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,880 It was just released, and we were scheduled 459 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,680 to play Max's Kansas City for six nights in a row. 460 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,720 We sold it out, two shows a night. 461 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:45,280 And it was a small place. 462 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,120 I mean, 50 people, 60 people. 463 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,080 You know, you put 100 people in there, 464 00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:51,040 and that's-- they're gone. 465 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,680 I saw the Dolls, and they played Max's, 466 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,600 and I said, "You know, I could do this. 467 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,560 I could get a band together, I'm doing it on the stage." 468 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,920 Obviously, the biggest foundational event 469 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,320 was when Danny Fields decided to drag Iggy Pop 470 00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:08,880 down to Max's one night, where he ran into David Bowie. 471 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,760 And the Bowie-Iggy Pop coalition, from that point, 472 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,880 became legendary, with a series of albums 473 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:15,840 and working back and forth with each other. 474 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,280 I think the most interesting thing about Max's Kansas City 475 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:24,560 was it was at a time when the rock world 476 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,200 and the art world melded together, 477 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,120 and it was also a time 478 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,840 when the audience wanted something new. 479 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:39,680 [rock music playing] 480 00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:44,520 [Neon Leon] And then you had the MIAMIS, 481 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,080 and they had a great song 482 00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:47,920 which was very popular in the underground 483 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,760 called "We Deliver". 484 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,760 Because they came up with this thing about, 485 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,160 "OK, you call us on the phone, and we deliver." 486 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,080 But they weren't delivering pizza. 487 00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:00,640 They had a spliff delivery service. 488 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,960 New York in the '70s, it was just this kind of place. 489 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,040 It was like, anything goes. 490 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:08,560 There were no limits. 491 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:09,680 A little scary too. 492 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,360 [laughs] You know. 493 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,160 They weren't aiming for punk rock. 494 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,280 I mean, although they did do Suicide 495 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,840 and New York Dolls and such, 496 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,160 they were also doing Howlin' Wolf. 497 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,680 When Mickey had Max's, the music upstairs was very eclectic. 498 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,480 You had folk singers. 499 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,360 I mean, you could have Arlo Guthrie, 500 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,760 you could have Bruce Springsteen, the Wailers, 501 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,480 John Fahey, and myself. 502 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,160 ♪♪ 503 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,520 ♪ Well after baby comes around We're going downtown ♪ 504 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,560 ♪ And see what it is we should know ♪ 505 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,440 ♪ Don't matter about the city 506 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,160 ♪ Girls and boys Are always pretty ♪ 507 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,360 ♪ And like leaves in the fall They will blow ♪ 508 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,520 ♪ Into the place Where there's a scene ♪ 509 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,000 ♪ And a screaming machine They will go ♪ 510 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,000 ♪ And you can laugh You can stare ♪ 511 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,880 ♪ But we're all In the same damn show ♪ 512 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,000 ♪ Na-na-na-na-na 513 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,960 ♪ Na-na-na-na-na 514 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,080 ♪♪ 515 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,840 ♪ You might find yourself In Paris ♪ 516 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,400 ♪ In a burning drugstore 517 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,440 ♪ And Rome's Spanish steps Are just around the corner ♪ 518 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,040 ♪ You can be in London In a hard rock cafe ♪ 519 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,640 ♪ And Max's Kansas City Got the same things to say ♪ 520 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,320 ♪ And I said, Whoa now baby What are we doing this for? ♪ 521 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,840 ♪ And she says, You better shut up ♪ 522 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,480 ♪ Cause you know who Just walked in the door ♪ 523 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,760 ♪ Now give me something more 524 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,880 [instrumental] 525 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,560 I'm not sure, but he left a lot of bills behind. 526 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,440 Because when I was with David Bowie's management company, 527 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,920 I had a charge account at Max's 528 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,920 and ran up all kinds of bills, 529 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,200 and a lot of people ran up bills, and Mickey couldn't-- 530 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,360 It was all these bills that he couldn't pay or make. 531 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,400 [Peter Crowley] Mickey had walked away. 532 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,600 I don't think he even declared bankruptcy, 533 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,920 and he just turned the key and lock, and walked away. 534 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,880 While Tommy Dean was in Paris with Laura Dean, 535 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,720 they saw in the Herald-Tribune 536 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,000 that Max's had gone out of business, 537 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,280 so they called their lawyer in New York and said, 538 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,800 "Go check and see what it would take to get this place." 539 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,280 The lawyer discovered that there was one lien, $3,500. 540 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,080 Tommy paid the electric bill, boom, he got Max's Kansas City. 541 00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:54,120 ["Hangin' Out by Elliott Murphy plays] 542 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,400 [music fades] 543 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,360 -♪ Gimme a C -♪ C 544 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,680 -♪ Gimme a B -♪ B 545 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,360 -♪ Gimme a G -♪ G 546 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:03,880 -♪ Gimme a B -♪ B 547 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,160 -♪ What's that spell? -♪ CBGB 548 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,600 -♪ What's that smell? -♪ CBGB 549 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,160 [Jimi LaLumia] Wayne County, in December of 1973. 550 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,160 It was the first of the Max's recorded artists 551 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,600 to play Hilly's on the Bowery, 552 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,920 just as it was about to turn into CBGB's. 553 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,800 Wayne opened that door at that time. 554 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,000 The fabrication of television, 555 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,360 just happened to be walking down the street one day in 1974, 556 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,280 when Hilly was changing the sign, 557 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,560 and that's how CBGB's was discovered? 558 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:39,680 No. 559 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:45,160 Oh, New York City in the mid 70s was Danger City. 560 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,800 And I remember getting on the train after a night of Max's, 561 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,040 and once, Clem Burke got on the train with me 562 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,040 to sort of scope it out and make sure everything was OK 563 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,000 because it was Danger City. 564 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,800 [Frank Infante] The Lower East Side, back then, 565 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,320 you just went there to cop heroin. 566 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:05,120 There was no other reason for me to be there. 567 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:06,640 The rents were cheap and all, 568 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,160 but in terms of anybody else going there, there was no point 569 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,320 in going unless you're going to go get drugs. 570 00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,040 And so you had a place like CBGB's 571 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,040 that met people 572 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,280 that really didn't have any kind of reputation or anything. 573 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,200 You could be anybody and just go down there and get a gig. 574 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,760 At that point, CBGB's was the only game in town. 575 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,800 82 Club had closed, 576 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,280 every other venue for unsigned bands was dead, 577 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,680 and my friend, Mike Umbers, turned me on to Mother's. 578 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,280 And I went up there, and I built the stage 579 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,360 and started putting bands in there. 580 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,480 And then when Max's reopened, it opened as a disco. 581 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,560 And that wasn't working, 582 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,680 and the new owner asked me if I would help him out. 583 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,200 And I said, OK, and I just moved 584 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,640 all my Mother's operations into Max's. 585 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,200 But Peter Crowley, 586 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,160 when he started booking the bands at Max's, 587 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,040 it totally changed Max's. 588 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,520 It put Max's really on the map with all those bands, you know, 589 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,280 bands like Blondie and the Ramones playing there. 590 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,880 Peter ran Max's, he managed Wayne County. 591 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,640 He got us. He understood us right away. 592 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,640 Hillary never understood us. 593 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,880 CBGB's, God bless Hillary, 594 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,560 but Hillary, the whole thing fell into his lap, 595 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,360 and I never ever, ever got the impression 596 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:26,800 he knew what to do with it. 597 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,040 He didn't understand the music, 598 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,240 or he didn't understand the Ramones or the Dead Boys. 599 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,400 I don't think he understood any of it. 600 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,120 [Frank Infante] And basically, it was taken over 601 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,320 by a certain bunch of people and bands, 602 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,760 and it became the place for all these bands to play, 603 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,480 you know, like the home spot. 604 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,440 [Peter Crowley] It built on itself, 605 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,960 and then all these record companies started coming down, 606 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,880 and they started to sign groups. 607 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:58,080 [rock music playing] 608 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:00,520 [Louie X. Erlanger] You know, Mink DeVille... 609 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,000 I met Mink DeVille down there. 610 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,560 He really knocked me out as a singer. 611 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,600 I heard him do "These Arms of Mine", 612 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,280 and I just thought, "This guy can sing anything, 613 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,520 and there's no young singers that can sing like this." 614 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,160 He had a voice that could go very deep 615 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,120 and also could reach up to falsetto with no effort. 616 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,960 Willy DeVille was the coolest guy on the scene, absolutely. 617 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,160 And you know what, the other bands recognized it as well. 618 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,640 I remember having a conversation with Jerry Nolan 619 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,520 and him saying, "Watch this guy. 620 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,840 He's the epitome of cool." 621 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,000 And he was. There was nobody like Willy DeVille. 622 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,440 [Jimi LaLumia] So Max's developed its own lineup, 623 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,720 and CB's developed their own lineup as well. 624 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,400 And at a certain point, things became a bit more rigid. 625 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,800 ["Junkie See, Junkie Do" by Jimi LaLumia plays] 626 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,520 Yeah, the whole scene really was concentrated 627 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,040 at Max's and CBGB's. 628 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,400 Some bands were Max's bands, some bands were CBGB's bands, 629 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,200 and sometimes there was crossover. 630 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,480 If you were going to Max's, you were going to CB's. 631 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,880 If you were going to CB's, you were going to Max's. 632 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,160 There was this whole thing of like CB's bands and Max's bands. 633 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,840 But when I was in Shrapnel, we were lucky enough 634 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,480 to play both places. 635 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,520 CB's didn't have a back room. 636 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,240 CB's had the Bowery, you know what I mean? 637 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,720 CB's had the hotel next door, the Bum hotel, 638 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,440 and they're throwing bottles at us downstairs. 639 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,320 [Neon Leon] It was a very creative place, 640 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,760 but Hilly had a dog, 641 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,760 and there was shit all over the floor! 642 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,560 He never would clean the shit, 643 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,040 and he didn't really clean the bathrooms. 644 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,440 So all the bathrooms smelled like urine, 645 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,840 the floor smelled like shit, but the music was good. 646 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,520 That was a drag because it was a great place to be. 647 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,000 It really was. 648 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,680 [Elliott Murphy] I played one gig at CBGB's. 649 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,800 I was not a fan of CBGB's. 650 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,280 I thought it was a dump, you know. 651 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,360 But I liked Max's. 652 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,640 By the time Tommy Dean came in, it was punk, and it was-- 653 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,840 He was booking a lot of the same bands who played at CBGB's. 654 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,880 But I didn't just book local bands 655 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,040 at Max's in the beginning. 656 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,120 So I brought in Luther Allison, 657 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,320 Mongo Santamaria, 658 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,080 Discotex, and the Sex-O-Lettes. 659 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,800 This was not working out, 660 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,320 so I stopped doing that after a few weeks 661 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,080 and concentrated on the New York bands 662 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:29,920 who would work for the door. 663 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,160 And we gave them the door, 664 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,200 whereas Hilly gave them the door 665 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,400 after he took the Hilly tax off the top. 666 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,240 So everybody liked to play Max's more than CBGB's. 667 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:42,640 Every band was different. 668 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,120 There wasn't one kind of thing. 669 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,240 I couldn't categorize it as just punk rock or what-- 670 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,120 You couldn't really pin down 671 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,600 because all different kinds of bands played there. 672 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,600 Max's volume two, 673 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,600 when it changed hands from Mickey Ruskin to Tommy Dean, 674 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:01,760 was really the birth 675 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,440 of the New York underground at that point. 676 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,600 Because prior to that, with the exception of the New York Dolls 677 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,480 and maybe one or two other artists, 678 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,160 Max's was very mainstream record label acts 679 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,960 or acts that were auditioning for Clive Davis, primarily. 680 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,520 Clive signed Bruce Springsteen at Max's Kansas City. 681 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,040 He signed Aerosmith at Max's Kansas City. 682 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:35,000 [soft rock music playing] 683 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,800 One day, I'm walking down in front of the Chelsea Hotel 684 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,200 on 23rd Street in New York. 685 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,160 Who do I see coming out the lot is the front? 686 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,760 Malcolm McLaren. 687 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,440 He said, "How's the Dolls, mate?", 688 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,680 you know, and all this. 689 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,320 And I say, ""Ah, 690 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,120 pretty fucked up, man, we're about to break up." 691 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,760 And then that's how we got together 692 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,440 and we started doing the whole Red Patent Leather show. 693 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,200 [Bob Gruen] It wasn't like he became 694 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:00,840 the manager of the New York Dolls. 695 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,240 He kind of organized some shows 696 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:03,840 so that they would wear his clothes. 697 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,200 What Malcolm did do was save their lives 698 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:07,800 because they were so down and out. 699 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,120 Johnny and Jerry had pretty severe heroin habits. 700 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:13,679 Arthur was drinking more than anybody had ever seen. 701 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,520 So Malcolm put Arthur into Roosevelt Hospital, 702 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,480 into a detox unit there, and he got Jerry and Johnny 703 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,679 into a kind of drug detox situation 704 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:25,840 to clean them up a bit, 705 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,639 basically so that they could play a show 706 00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:30,960 and wear his clothes, and publicize his outfits. 707 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,400 For me, seeing the Dolls in that period 708 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,880 was seeing actually an era transition. 709 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:44,480 Because you've also lost the glam rock scene 710 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,120 that was part of New York in the early '70s. 711 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:50,560 And it's moved over to a club called CBGB, 712 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,960 where the style of dress is different 713 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,480 and the attitude is different, 714 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,600 and the presentation is different. 715 00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:59,040 A band like Aerosmith started out making money 716 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:00,440 and just kept making money, 717 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,080 and they were making money in barrels. 718 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,240 The Dolls were like losing money in fucking barrels. 719 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,400 And they're gonna go, take Arthur out of rehab 720 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,280 and go down to Florida and start a tour 721 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,040 with no roadie and Malcolm driving. 722 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,520 But as soon as they got there, Johnny and Jerry 723 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,360 were more interested in feeding their heroin habit 724 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,400 than in playing any shows. 725 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,040 And they got some of the local kids to go out 726 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,200 and try to find new heroin, and it wasn't good enough, 727 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:25,040 and they wanted to come back to New York to get some more dope. 728 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:29,160 But yes, I mean, it's very hard for anybody to score, 729 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,920 especially back in 1975 in Tampa, Florida. 730 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:34,280 That's where we were. 731 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:40,400 Thunders and Nolan can't score drugs down there, 732 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,160 and they said, "Well, fuck it. We're going back to New York." 733 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,280 And David told them that if they came back to New York, 734 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,200 if they left the tour just because of drugs, 735 00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:50,720 he didn't want to play with them anymore. 736 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,800 [Marty Thau] And at that point, 737 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,840 David and Syl knew that the Dolls were over. 738 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,440 [Bob Gruen] In the end, they were truly ahead of their time. 739 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,240 They predicted not only the coming of punk 740 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,440 but the renaissance of garage rock. 741 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,800 [rock music playing] 742 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,960 I think Syl had to sell a guitar 743 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,160 in order to buy a ticket for Malcolm 744 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:16,760 to get back to London. 745 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,120 [rock music playing] 746 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,240 He said to me, "Mate, what do you want to do? 747 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,640 "I've got all these-- my wife's got all these kids 748 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,000 "hanging around the shop, 749 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,080 "and we could put a great band together for you," 750 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:31,320 and all this kind of stuff. 751 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,760 And I said, "All right, well, let's try it." 752 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,480 And he said to me, "Look, give me your guitar 753 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,080 and your piano, by the way, and I'll send you a plane ticket." 754 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:40,600 [Marty Thau] And he went back to London 755 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,240 with his tail between his legs, 756 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:47,040 but he learned a lot from the downtown music makers 757 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:48,600 and taste makers. 758 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,640 And so he put together the Sex Pistols, 759 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,680 which was a combination of the Dolls attitude 760 00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:00,160 and the Ramones three-chord riff, 761 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:01,880 and Richard Hell's fashion. 762 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,760 [Sylvain Sylvain] He loved Richard Hell. 763 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,040 He left me a suit that I gave to Richard. 764 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,120 He took that whole-- he borrowed, man, 765 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,320 from that whole thing there with The Police, 766 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,160 "Kill Me", "The Blank Generation". 767 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,080 We did all this. 768 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,200 We put all this together. 769 00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:20,600 This guy, this shopkeeper, comes in, 770 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,800 and he takes all the ideas, and he runs with it. 771 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:25,520 [Peter Crowley] Malcolm claimed that 772 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,440 he invented the Sex Pistols, yada, yada, yada. 773 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,360 That's an extreme exaggeration. 774 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,480 He did introduce Rotten to the band, 775 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,360 but the band already existed, 776 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,840 and basically, they created themselves. 777 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,280 [Billy Idol] Eventually, in England, it did explode, 778 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,440 and it went kind of mega, you know. 779 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,080 The Pistols went mega after being on the bill grunge. 780 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:47,400 It just exploded. 781 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,960 [Penny Arcade] I remember Danny Fields 782 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,160 asking me to come down to CBGB's 783 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,440 because he was representing the Ramones. 784 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,280 I had never seen the Ramones. 785 00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,880 And then you go in, 786 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,320 and there were these gawky-looking creatures, 787 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,400 you know, 788 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,560 and they were all wearing motorcycle jackets. 789 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,440 [Jay Jay French] They were simple, but they were-- 790 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:09,840 they had something. 791 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,280 You could see it. 792 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,520 There was a unification of images, 793 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:14,920 a unification of playing. 794 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,680 There were all exactly on the same page. 795 00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:19,360 [Peter Crowley] When you have the Ramones on one hand, 796 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,680 and Blondie, and Talking Heads, 797 00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:27,440 lumping them together as punk rock was a bit strange. 798 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,000 The Talking Heads were definitely a breakthrough band. 799 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,120 The Ramones we would go to see, 800 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,920 but the Ramones, after a short period of time, 801 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,120 became more of a CBGB's band. 802 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:38,480 [Alice Cooper] I love the Ramones 803 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,800 because the Ramones were just street kids. 804 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,800 They didn't try to be the Beatles. 805 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,360 They weren't trying to be this. 806 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:45,840 They were the Ramones. 807 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,360 When you heard a Ramones song, you knew it was the Ramones. 808 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,040 When you heard a Blondie song, you knew it was Blondie. 809 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,600 That's the important thing, is that identity. 810 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,680 The identity was so strong. 811 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,560 To get that identity that nobody else had was really important. 812 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,480 [Jayne County] Blondie, 813 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,720 with their radio-friendly approach to pop singles, 814 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,680 became theband. 815 00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:15,520 The group reflecting the success of the New York rock scene. 816 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,760 No one would believe that Blondie 817 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,920 was going to become such a-- so big. 818 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,480 And when she became bigger, it's like, "Oh my God, 819 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:29,000 "yeah, even Patti Smith got a little crazy 820 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,920 when she started getting so big." 821 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,520 I always considered Debbie the Marilyn Monroe of punk. 822 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,560 And Patti Smith, well, 823 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,360 she's not the Marilyn Monroe of punk, that's for sure. 824 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,360 So I DJ'ed at Mickey Ruskin's Max's 825 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,040 and I DJ'ed at Tommy Lane's Max's. 826 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,840 I remember Dee Dee Ramone coming to me and in the record booth 827 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,520 and the DJ booth, 828 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,280 and saying to me, "They're all saying we're punk. 829 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,080 We're not punk, we're rock and roll." 830 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,200 Punk was kind of forced on everyone. 831 00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:02,760 [Penny Arcade] People want to go on and on 832 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,720 about punk at Max's 833 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,800 as if it was some kind of political movement 834 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,680 like it was in London. 835 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,560 In England, punk was a political movement. 836 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,720 In New York, punk was a bunch of people 837 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,000 trying to get a record deal. 838 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:22,440 [rock music playing] 839 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,880 [Jayne County] Dee Dee was going out with this crazy girlfriend 840 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,600 who had been with Arthur Kane before, 841 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,040 and she had tried to chop off Arthur Kane 842 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:38,520 from the New York Dolls; 843 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,880 tried to chop off his stumps so he couldn't play bass. 844 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:44,560 What was her name? 845 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,160 Crazy... Crazy Connie. 846 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,320 Everyone called her Crazy Connie. 847 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,280 She was totally psychotic, 848 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,200 and that was the story that people used to tell 849 00:40:54,240 --> 00:40:57,720 about how when Dee Dee was going up to 53rd and 3rd... 850 00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,440 ♪ 53rd and 3rd 851 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,080 ["53rd and 3rd" by The Ramones plays] 852 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,360 ♪ Let's cruise to the shore Get some beer ♪ 853 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,280 ♪ We need some more I feel good tonight ♪ 854 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,040 ♪ Let's get drunk And have a fight... ♪ 855 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,080 And he came back from hustling, 856 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:13,920 went up to 53rd and 3rd, 857 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,160 and Connie got mad because Connie caught him with a trick, 858 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:24,360 and she freaked out and tried to stab Dee Dee in the cock, 859 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,760 and tried to cut his cock off. 860 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,320 And he had scars on his cock. 861 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,320 And so one night at Max's, 862 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,360 I was upstairs in the dressing room 863 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,160 and Dee Dee came up to go to the bathroom. 864 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,160 And he went to the bathroom, and he turned around and said, 865 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,520 "Wayne, look at my cock, look at my dick, look what she-- 866 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:43,920 "Connie tried to chop it off. 867 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,960 Look, there's scars all over my dick." 868 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,120 And Dee Dee was the first person who noticed my tits 869 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,200 when I was growing-- started taking hormones 870 00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:54,680 and growing my chest. 871 00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:57,160 And Dee Dee was like, "You've got tits, Wayne. 872 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:58,640 Look you've got little tits." 873 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,880 And I said, "Yeah, I'm going to grow tits." 874 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,440 And he said, "Oh, don't grow 'em real big. 875 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,240 Don't grow 'em real big, just grow a handful." 876 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,360 And he took his hands, and he put them right there. 877 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,400 "Just grow a little. Just a handful is enough." 878 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,840 But luckily, I didn't have to get anything done. 879 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,000 They just grew on their own, 880 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,440 much to the disbelief of people at Max's. 881 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:25,040 And Patti Smith, oh my God! What a bad reaction! 882 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:26,560 She saw them. 883 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,640 I was walking down the street one day and I ran into Patti. 884 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,760 And I go, "Hey Patti", and she goes, "hey, hey.." 885 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,480 [mumbles] ...like that, you know. 886 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,360 And then she went... 887 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,160 ...back like that because she got a gander on my tits. 888 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,440 Her reaction was like, "What's that?" 889 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,560 And then she clammed up, so it was-- 890 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,000 My tits were very famous at Max's. 891 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,760 [Peter Crowley] The place was pretty successful 892 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,920 with those bookings, 893 00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:01,520 and Tommy set out immediately to enlarge the upstairs. 894 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,560 So we ended up with a room that would hold 200 people. 895 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,160 Well, Tommy Dean was great. 896 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,400 But basically, you worked for Laura Dean. 897 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:11,760 She was the boss. 898 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,720 She wore the pants. 899 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,480 [Jayne County] You know, during the first, 900 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,600 Max's was really-- 901 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,040 The place was really for artists 902 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,640 and for the Warhol crowd, and people like that. 903 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,040 During the second Max's, it was more the music. 904 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,800 It was Blondie, Ramones... 905 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,040 Patti played there, of course, on television, 906 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,000 and all these other bands that didn't go on to do anything 907 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,520 but they were part of the Max's scene. 908 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,280 There were a lot of people that hung out at Max's 909 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,120 that made Max's what it was 910 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,440 that did not go on to be big stars, 911 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,880 but they really did make Max's. 912 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,040 One thing about Max's is you oftentimes went on 913 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,400 very, very late, super late. 914 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:57,200 So what we were looking at in our audience were prostitutes, 915 00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:59,240 taxi drivers, Warhol, 916 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,200 superstars, junkies, writers... 917 00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:06,280 whoever didn't have to wake up like at 8 o'clock or earlier. 918 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,520 ♪♪ 919 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,800 ♪ Some say 920 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,600 ♪ That we [inaudible] 921 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,400 ♪ That life is just for living 922 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:35,880 ♪ The object only win 923 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,240 ♪ Keep your head 924 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,800 ♪ But I say 925 00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:48,320 ♪ There is no denying 926 00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:52,680 ♪ We all question dying 927 00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:56,720 ♪ If you can't hear the crying 928 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,040 ♪ Then you're [inaudible] 929 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:07,040 [vocalizing] 930 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:18,440 [Sonny Vincent] We liked Max's because you could do 931 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,160 anything you wanted to there. 932 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,240 You could be wild, you could lay down, 933 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,480 you could jump in the audience, you could deconstruct songs, 934 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,520 you could play songs with bad endings, 935 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,080 play bad songs with great endings... 936 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,440 You could experiment, do whatever you wanted to. 937 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,120 We really felt like we'd arrive somewhere 938 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:40,240 and that this was the center of the universe for us. 939 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,400 Every night there were genius bands. 940 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,360 I don't remember seeing any band I didn't like. 941 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,160 [Peter Crowley] I found The Cramps at CBGB's, 942 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,840 and they were doing the audition night. 943 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,160 In the middle of their set, Hilly came over and poked me, 944 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,840 and he laughed, and he said, "You think they're serious?" 945 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,200 And I said, "I don't know if they're serious, 946 00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:00,080 but I think they're fabulous." 947 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:01,720 I mean, they were terrible. 948 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,800 They were so out of tune it was painful. 949 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,600 They were crying because they came from Ohio 950 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,440 and they expected to be CBGB stars, 951 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,440 and here they were being rejected. 952 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,880 And I said, "You can come to Max's 953 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,240 "and I'll give you bookings, 954 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,920 but you got to bring a tuning machine to my office." 955 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,960 [Phil Caivano] The other band that I really think 956 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,280 doesn't get enough credit, Suicide... 957 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,560 they were really that art music, 958 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,800 didn't know what was going to happen, 959 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,360 scary, phenomenal. 960 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:40,000 There was one time Alan got up on stage with a cassette player 961 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,760 and played it through the PA because Marty wasn't there. 962 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,080 Like, it's a Suicide show, it didn't matter. 963 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:46,760 I call him Suicide. 964 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,560 So for me, he always did weird shit. 965 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,600 And when Suicide played, it could be quite an event. 966 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,280 Bottles being flung, 967 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,480 physicality, being chased off stage. 968 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,800 [Alan Vega] [inaudible] Suicide was [inaudible] me, 969 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,280 We both had our way. 970 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,240 And our way was democracy. 971 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,840 So in words, we only played what was good for both of us. 972 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,920 And then the Max's Kansas City album came out, 973 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:18,600 and I recorded three tracks. 974 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,680 Peter Crowley decided to take my "Death to Disco" single 975 00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:26,640 after my borrowing a paragraph from Punk Magazine. 976 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,680 And that became a mainstay on the Max's Kansas City jukebox. 977 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:32,680 [Sonny Vincent] The scene was great as far as the clubs 978 00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:34,880 and the music. 979 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,920 It was really inspiring, a lot of feeling. 980 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:45,040 And a lot of the bands were very raw, which I liked a lot. 981 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:46,520 I liked the rawness. 982 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,840 I liked the fact that it wasn't fake. 983 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:52,640 Nobody was doing it only for the money, 984 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,440 except perhaps a few notable exceptions. 985 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,640 And yeah, it was great. 986 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:03,400 It was really great. It was inspiring chills and thrills. 987 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,240 In high school, I really used to go a lot. 988 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:11,160 I used to kind of cut class and take a train at the city, 989 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,000 and go to 48th Street and check out all the guitars, 990 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,400 and then I'd head down to Max's Kansas City 991 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:17,920 and spend all night there, 992 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,160 and come home late and get in trouble. 993 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:29,160 [rock music playing] 994 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,760 [crowd cheering] 995 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,880 One of the pivotal moments in the New York rock scene 996 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:41,200 was the Dick Manitoba- Wayne County incident at CBGB's. 997 00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:44,320 After that occurred, the scene was never quite the same. 998 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,040 There was a real divide between Max's Kansas City and CBGB. 999 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,360 And that was mainly because of the fight I had 1000 00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,760 with Dick Manitoba onstage at CBGB's. 1001 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:59,080 He was harassing me and saying very homophobic things. 1002 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:00,960 [Jimi LaLumia] Manitoba of the Dictators 1003 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,600 heckled Wayne County in a way that Wayne took as menacing. 1004 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,560 [Jayne County] And then he jumped up on stage 1005 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,000 to go to the bathroom, but I didn't know 1006 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:09,240 he was going to the bathroom. 1007 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,040 I thought he was jumping up onstage to hit me. 1008 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,640 He'd been yelling horrible things at me from the audience. 1009 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:15,640 When he jumped up on stage, 1010 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,120 I did not wait to see what he was going to do. 1011 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:21,720 I just conked him with the mic then, 1012 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,800 and he fell off the stage and hit his head into a table 1013 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:27,080 and gave himself a concussion. 1014 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:28,440 [bell dings] 1015 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,600 Then he proceeded to jump up on stage again with me. 1016 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:32,640 [Jimi LaLumia] They wound up on stage together, 1017 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,400 battling, fighting, punching. 1018 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,680 [Jayne County] And finally, I had to pin him down to the floor 1019 00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:39,600 and just go bam, bam, bam. 1020 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,240 There's blood everywhere, you know. 1021 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,080 [bell dings] 1022 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:51,040 And it just turned into a whole War and Peacescenario, 1023 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,480 which divided the New York rock scene. 1024 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,680 And I think that people at Max's were disappointed 1025 00:49:57,720 --> 00:49:59,880 because they said, "Oh my God, 1026 00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:04,200 we wish that this had happened at Max's and not CBGB's." 1027 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:10,520 [Phyllis Stein] The Heartbreakers 1028 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,720 were a Max's band straight out. 1029 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,880 And part of the reason they were a Max's band 1030 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:16,680 is because Max's paid them a lot more 1031 00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:18,200 than Hilly paid his bands. 1032 00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:20,320 The Dolls had been a Max's band, 1033 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,400 so it was a natural progression for the Heartbreakers. 1034 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:29,080 [rock music playing] 1035 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,840 That band basically revolved around drugs, 1036 00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,480 not as a band but as individual members. 1037 00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:45,320 [Jayne County] They brought in a very drug-oriented audience 1038 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:49,920 because at one time, people used to come to Max's 1039 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:54,000 to see if this is going to be the gig at Max's, 1040 00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,040 that Johnny Thunders drops dead. 1041 00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:57,840 Eventually, he played on it, you know. 1042 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,760 They had advertisements: "Catch us while we're still alive." 1043 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,120 [Jayne County] They also captured a New York sensibility. 1044 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:09,520 You know, Chinese Rocksand that sense of dissolute abandon. 1045 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,560 [Bob Gruen] In spite of whatever drugs he was on, 1046 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,000 he knew how to take care of business. 1047 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:15,880 Of course he was pretty slick about it. 1048 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,880 He'd have a show at Max's scheduled, 1049 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,360 and so he'd talk Tommy, - a teen who was the manager at Max's - 1050 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:22,920 he'd talk Tommy into giving him an advance, 1051 00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,080 and then he'd show up on the day of the show 1052 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:26,440 and say there was nothing he could do. 1053 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,120 He had pawned his guitar, he'd run out of money, 1054 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,520 and he had the guitar in the pawn shop 1055 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,840 and he needed more money or he couldn't play the show. 1056 00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,520 And Tommy was in a bind. If he said no, there was no show. 1057 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:38,200 If he said yes, they don't make money. 1058 00:51:38,240 --> 00:51:41,040 So he's the kind of guy that if the show sucked, 1059 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:42,280 it didn't matter. 1060 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,440 It was always exciting and cool, 1061 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,560 even if he fucked up, and it didn't really matter. 1062 00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:49,960 But when he was on, and everybody was all together, 1063 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,600 obviously, it was better. 1064 00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:55,800 Possibly some of the greatest rock and roll music 1065 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:57,040 ever composed 1066 00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,960 by some of the greatest, including Jerry Nolan, 1067 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:01,800 who was crazier than them all. 1068 00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,000 The greatest music that you could possibly hope for, 1069 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:08,040 but just mismanagement, including me, 1070 00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,040 that just wrecked it up. 1071 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,200 We were all hanging out at Max's. 1072 00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:14,040 I mean regularly, every night, 1073 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,760 it would be Johnny, Jerry, me, Stiv. 1074 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:21,360 Tommy Dean was still supporting Johnny Thunders 1075 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,000 in a lot of ways by giving them food 1076 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,680 and paying them advances, and all of that kind of stuff. 1077 00:52:27,720 --> 00:52:30,200 During the Happy Hour, there was free food, 1078 00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:32,360 and a lot of the musicians would come, 1079 00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,480 and that would be their only hot meal of the day. 1080 00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:39,160 But that put 3,000 to 4,000 to $5000 in the register 1081 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,080 before I even did a soundcheck. 1082 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,080 Therefore there was no heavy pressure on me 1083 00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,160 to book for money. 1084 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,640 Well, I first went to Max's in 1978. 1085 00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:56,480 I was now in a group, Generation X, 1086 00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:57,960 my own punk rock group. 1087 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,360 I was actually on a press junket in New York. 1088 00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:08,280 Patti Smith was doing a showcase for her album Radio Ethiopia 1089 00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,960 at Max's, so who I first saw 1090 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,640 doing an incredible show at Max's was Patti Smith. 1091 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:16,960 So it was like, "Wow." 1092 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,360 I mean, she was a massive hero to us. 1093 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,480 And so we loved Horses, 1094 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:25,000 and there I was getting a sort of a view into her new album. 1095 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,080 So Max's... there, it was all coming true for me. 1096 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:33,960 [rock music playing] 1097 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,920 I used to hang out at Max's all the time 1098 00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,760 and CB's, and for a long time, my old band, The Stimulators, 1099 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,520 we were almost like the house band at Max's. 1100 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,000 We used to play there so much. 1101 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,160 Along comes Harley. 1102 00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,320 12 years old, kicking his drum kit over twice a night. 1103 00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,040 And this was also two sets. 1104 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:58,080 Max's was two sets a night: an early set and a late set. 1105 00:53:58,120 --> 00:53:59,800 I'd go there to see The Stimulators 1106 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:01,960 when I was a kid before my band could play, 1107 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,280 and there was little Harley playing the drums 1108 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,080 and Denise's aunt on guitar blowing us away. 1109 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,320 We played there very often. 1110 00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:11,960 We were beloved at Max's. 1111 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,680 And early on, when we began, 1112 00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:19,800 our set was so fast and so invigorating. 1113 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:21,480 And we'd knock over the table 1114 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,960 so we could have room to jump up and down, 1115 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:25,280 kind of Pogo-ing. 1116 00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:27,240 So whenever The Stimulators played, 1117 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,440 the staff had to take away all the tables and chairs 1118 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,400 before we began, or they would be destroyed. 1119 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,840 But anyway, I started playing there around the same time 1120 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,160 that Sid was doing all his shows there. 1121 00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,000 He was living in New York at the time. 1122 00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,640 It was right after he had left the Sex Pistols. 1123 00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:45,960 [Jayne County] Oh yes, he used to come to me and he'd go, 1124 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:49,480 "Wayne, do you think Sid is gay? 1125 00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,400 "I think Sid not be gay. 1126 00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:54,000 He can't fuck me." 1127 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:58,960 And I'm like, "You're on drugs, you're on dope, you're on junk. 1128 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:00,520 He can't fuck you." 1129 00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,920 The first Thursday, Sid went over well 1130 00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,480 as far as ticket sales and all that sort of thing. 1131 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:08,960 Nancy was happy. 1132 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:10,560 Poor Sid was half dead. 1133 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,960 He had the flu or something similar 1134 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:15,920 with a very high fever. 1135 00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,840 He'd gathered a really good set of musicians. 1136 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,880 The band was just fine. 1137 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,160 [Nick Marden] Mick Jones jumped up in the air too much. 1138 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:24,680 [laughs] 1139 00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:28,040 Other than that, they were a good, solid rock and roll band, 1140 00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,000 Mick Jones, Killer Kane, and Jerry Nolan playing drums. 1141 00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:32,400 What a fantastic band! 1142 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,640 And he sang. He did his best. 1143 00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:38,720 I mean, it was a lot of criticism that people had, 1144 00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,400 that they were shit and everything. 1145 00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,240 I thought it was great. 1146 00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,040 You know, it's rock and roll, it's not perfection. 1147 00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,320 I loved when Sid sang. 1148 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,160 ♪♪ 1149 00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:57,360 ♪ I create a lot of problems But now I'm really gonna try ♪ 1150 00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:00,880 ♪ Been in a messy situation 1151 00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,560 ♪ And for you it's been no fun 1152 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,280 ♪ But if we're Getting down to favors ♪ 1153 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,440 ♪ Then honey you can do me one 1154 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:13,320 ♪ But take a chance on me 1155 00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:15,840 ♪ Take a chance on me 1156 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,400 ♪ Take a chance on me 1157 00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:23,960 ♪ Take a chance on me, yeah 1158 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:27,280 [instrumental] 1159 00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,520 ♪ Well I know I'm just a junkie ♪ 1160 00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,000 ♪ And I can't make it off the floor ♪ 1161 00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,560 ♪ But all that Really doesn't matter ♪ 1162 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,320 ♪ Because with you I'm something more ♪ 1163 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,480 ♪ It's just a little Complicated ♪ 1164 00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,560 ♪ And everything they say Is true ♪ 1165 00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:51,960 [rock music playing] 1166 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,360 [Neon Leon] The death knell for the scene, I think, 1167 00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,040 was Sid and Nancy's deaths, 1168 00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,240 and it brought a kind of attention to it 1169 00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:18,160 that wasn't really necessary to the scene. 1170 00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,720 It wasn't really safe in here. 1171 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:26,640 The blitz incident took place in 1978, 1172 00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,680 when a lot of bad things were happening all over the scene. 1173 00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,840 [Denise Mercedes] Johnny Blitz got attacked and stabbed, 1174 00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:35,400 and that was really bad. 1175 00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:40,400 I mean, that kind of changed the feeling of, like... 1176 00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,320 punks and musicians walking down the street 1177 00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,240 and feeling that you could get attacked 1178 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,760 because of the way you dressed or the way you looked. 1179 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:51,760 [Sonny Vincent] I think it was threatening to people, 1180 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,560 to the extent-- more than we realized. 1181 00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:57,760 We'd walk down the street and people would say, 1182 00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:00,520 "Where the fuck you going? To a Halloween party?" 1183 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,840 Or, you know, "Look at that crazy motherfucker." 1184 00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:06,440 [Denise Mercedes] It's funny because when I think back 1185 00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:08,400 to the whole punk scene in New York, 1186 00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:09,680 and CBGB's, and Max's, 1187 00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:12,800 and you really think about the different bands, 1188 00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,520 I would say that the Heartbreakers, 1189 00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:20,080 and the Voidoids, and even the Sex Pistols, 1190 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:21,600 I would say, were not tough. 1191 00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:25,280 They were not macho kind of guys. 1192 00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:29,360 But the Dead Boys were legitimately tough. 1193 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,520 They were from Cleveland. They were from Youngstown. 1194 00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,160 They were scrappy. 1195 00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:34,800 They would mouth off to people. 1196 00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,240 Even Stiv, as tiny as he was, 1197 00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,680 wouldn't hesitate to get into a fight with somebody. 1198 00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:44,920 [rock music playing] 1199 00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:46,800 We played with the Talking Heads, 1200 00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,080 we played with Iggy, we played with the Ramones... 1201 00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:54,240 You know, I got friendly with the Ramones and Johnny. 1202 00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:55,720 Especially Johnny. 1203 00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,960 ♪ Well everyone suffered For weeks and for weeks ♪ 1204 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:04,520 ♪ When the telephone building Burnt down ♪ 1205 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,640 ♪ Well, there were Many lonely days ♪ 1206 00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:11,720 ♪ When I just didn't speak 1207 00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:15,560 ♪ Well over on my side of town 1208 00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:21,360 ♪ Well over on my side of town 1209 00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:27,160 ♪ It's just like when the circus is around ♪ 1210 00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:33,960 ♪ You see the clowns They're nodding out on downs ♪ 1211 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,800 ♪ And the junkies Are making dead sounds ♪ 1212 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:39,880 [vocalizing] 1213 00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:44,200 ♪ And I'm Ruby From the wrong side of town ♪ 1214 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:49,960 ♪ And I'm a girl With both feet on the ground ♪ 1215 00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:56,520 ♪ I always thrive while others just survive ♪ 1216 00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:01,560 ♪ I'm Ruby From the wrong side of town ♪ 1217 01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,160 [Jesse Malin] I tried to sneak in a few times 1218 01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,080 and in those days, they didn't really hit you too hard 1219 01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:09,960 if you were underage; 11, 12. 1220 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,360 It wasn't like it became where they had IDs. 1221 01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:13,440 But I tried to sneak in. 1222 01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,000 I had no money, and I had, I don't know, 1223 01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,360 like a fifth of whiskey or something on me, 1224 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:19,800 or some small... I don't know what I had. 1225 01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:21,320 And they threw me down the stairs. 1226 01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:22,600 The bouncers were really tough. 1227 01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:24,480 And I just went right down those stairs. 1228 01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,600 Jesse, he was too young, man. 1229 01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:31,280 Can't be throwing a little kid down the damn stairs. 1230 01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,560 Shoot. 1231 01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:34,960 [Ruby Lynn Reyner] In the beginning, 1232 01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:36,960 it was like hanging out, 1233 01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:40,760 and the people were interacting with each other, 1234 01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:42,000 and we were creating. 1235 01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:44,240 Plus, I kind of, at the same time, 1236 01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,400 was introduced to shooting amphetamine. 1237 01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:53,280 And then it became kind of a criminal element. 1238 01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:56,480 It was like the speed... 1239 01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,840 It got dark. It became very dark. 1240 01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,000 People would offer us drugs as kids, 1241 01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:04,480 and you could see that so much of this 1242 01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:06,800 was going on in bathrooms. 1243 01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:10,080 And I also was noticing that, at the time, that men and women 1244 01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:12,000 would go into the same bathroom together, 1245 01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:13,160 and nobody bothered them. 1246 01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:14,560 It was like-- that was normal. 1247 01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:16,880 If one bathroom was full, they'd just go on to another. 1248 01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:19,400 You had men in the ladies room all the time, 1249 01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:23,360 and ladies going into the men's restroom. 1250 01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:26,000 The bathrooms that matches were integrated. 1251 01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:29,640 [Donna Destri] They weren't like the bathrooms at CBGB's, 1252 01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:31,880 where you took your life in your hands. 1253 01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:35,680 I mean, I would never go to the bathrooms at CBGB's. 1254 01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:40,520 That was just like bacteria to the n-th degree. 1255 01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:43,160 Max's were clean at least. 1256 01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:47,920 There was some sex going on in the bathrooms, I'm sure. 1257 01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:51,600 There's the famous story of Eric Emerson having sex 1258 01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:54,480 in the bathrooms at Max's, so... 1259 01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:56,320 I don't know about that personally. 1260 01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:58,280 [laughs] 1261 01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,400 [Ruby Lynn Reyner] He used to take girls into the bathroom 1262 01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:03,520 and have sex with them. 1263 01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:08,200 He asked me one time, "Do you want to have my child?" 1264 01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:13,680 [Louie X. Erlanger] Sex was rampant in the bathrooms, 1265 01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:16,200 as well as, you go into a stall 1266 01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:21,200 and you hear a lot of sniffing in the stall next to you. 1267 01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:23,240 [Harley Flanagan] It wasn't like a bunch of rich people 1268 01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:24,360 sniffing blow. 1269 01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:28,400 It was a bunch of total scumbag, crazy, 1270 01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:34,520 punk rock, junkie, prostitute, fucking messes. 1271 01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:37,480 And here, my 12-year-old ass is running around, 1272 01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:41,160 hitting people up for quarters for the pinball machine, yeah. 1273 01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,120 "Do you have any quaaludes?" 1274 01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:47,040 "Uh... No I'm on speed tonight." 1275 01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:52,920 It was such an extraordinary place, 1276 01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,280 where you never know who you would run into 1277 01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:57,920 or see, 1278 01:02:57,960 --> 01:02:59,240 or who would perform. 1279 01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,480 Everybody from Wayne County... 1280 01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:05,040 Where else would you see someone like Wayne County? 1281 01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:08,920 Well, Jayne is, you know... How can I shock you? 1282 01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:10,880 And how many different ways? 1283 01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:13,880 Fabulous. Fabulous performer. 1284 01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,960 Every couple of months, I would play Max's. 1285 01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,520 But when I moved to England, I would come back and play 1286 01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:22,120 like one night there, and it would be a big night, 1287 01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,440 because I'd been away in England for six whole months. 1288 01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:25,840 People would come to see me, 1289 01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,160 there'd be lines around the block. 1290 01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:31,000 You know, lines around the block at Max's Kansas City. 1291 01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:32,760 "Come see us," you know. 1292 01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,200 ♪ The New York Dolls Are kicking it out ♪ 1293 01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:37,040 ♪ And looking it up 1294 01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:40,080 ♪ You've got A personality crisis, baby ♪ 1295 01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:43,840 ♪ Down at Max's 1296 01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,920 ♪ All the boys are 1297 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,520 ♪ And all the girls are 1298 01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:54,080 ♪ All the kids are They're down at Max's ♪ 1299 01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:01,120 ♪ Blondie's all in a buzz 1300 01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:04,920 ♪ She's on the cover Of the New York Rocker ♪ 1301 01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:07,800 ♪ Dee Dee Ramone Strips his bass to the bone ♪ 1302 01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,600 ♪ He's a blitzkrieg Blitzkrieg, blitzkrieg bopper ♪ 1303 01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:12,480 ♪ The Heartbreakers Are going to give you ♪ 1304 01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:15,360 ♪ A taste of going steady With Pirate Love ♪ 1305 01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:18,680 ♪ You'd better watch it 'Cause the Electric Chairs ♪ 1306 01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:20,280 ♪ Are gonna fry your brain 1307 01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:22,360 ♪ Come on, boys! 1308 01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:23,760 ♪ The downstairs is packed 1309 01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,400 ♪ And the groupies Are all dressed up ♪ 1310 01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:30,280 ♪ Upstairs the New York Dolls 1311 01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:33,400 ♪ Are kicking it out And looking it up ♪ 1312 01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,440 ♪ Bad girls Just looking for a kiss ♪ 1313 01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:39,520 ♪ Down at Max's 1314 01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:42,520 ♪ All the boys are 1315 01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:46,360 ♪ And all the girls are 1316 01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:48,600 ♪ All the kids are... 1317 01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:54,440 [Jimi LaLumia] Years later, I heard the various stories 1318 01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:59,000 about money being manufactured in the basement. 1319 01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:03,080 I always said, "I never heard that." 1320 01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:04,720 Because if I did, 1321 01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,800 I would probably have asked for some of the gig money 1322 01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:10,080 that we sometimes didn't get. 1323 01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:18,440 [Peter Crowley] He and Laura, again, they were in Paris. 1324 01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:21,080 They have all their brilliant ideas in Paris. 1325 01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:25,000 And they noticed that French money 1326 01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:28,760 is different sizes for the different denominations. 1327 01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:32,720 And they noticed that American money is all the same size. 1328 01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:36,480 And the biggest problem for counterfeiters in America, 1329 01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:40,840 at that time, was getting a hold of the correct paper. 1330 01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:42,360 So they got home 1331 01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:45,440 and Laura started working with various bleaches 1332 01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:46,840 and things like that, 1333 01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:50,360 and she figured out how to bleach out a $1 bill 1334 01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:52,160 without destroying it. 1335 01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:54,680 At the same time, Xerox came out 1336 01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:58,680 with a new color copier that was so precise 1337 01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:02,640 it could do the very fine lines in money. 1338 01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:05,120 So they started bleaching out those ones 1339 01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:06,720 and printing the hundreds. 1340 01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,960 And they figured out how to pass them without getting caught. 1341 01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:13,920 They would go to Atlantic City and buy chips. 1342 01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:18,640 He was relatively adept at gambling, so at one time, 1343 01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:21,360 he could make money playing poker and that sort of thing. 1344 01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:26,480 By 1881, he wasn't so good at it anymore. 1345 01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:29,240 It was the influence of the White Lady that... 1346 01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:31,760 Well, that got him involved in doing all this crazy shit 1347 01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:33,480 in the first place, 1348 01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:36,960 and then also threw off his skill. 1349 01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:38,800 So anyway, here he was, 1350 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:40,520 printing away money, printing away money. 1351 01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:42,040 He made two mistakes. 1352 01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:46,440 First mistake was, he paid the electric bill with bad money. 1353 01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:52,000 Around 1980, a vice president from Con Ed came to Max's 1354 01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:54,960 and said, "So Tommy, we'll take your check, 1355 01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:57,400 but we won't take your cash anymore." 1356 01:06:57,440 --> 01:06:59,880 If I was in Tommy's shoes at that time, 1357 01:06:59,920 --> 01:07:02,440 that would tell me it's time to get out of the business, 1358 01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:07,120 to stop, because if the Con Ed people can catch me, 1359 01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:11,200 how far behind can the Treasury Department be? 1360 01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:18,880 [rock music playing] 1361 01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:26,680 The rise of what we now know as New York hardcore 1362 01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:30,520 starts with the Bad Brains' first shows in New York. 1363 01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:34,440 And the Bad Brains had played Max's 1364 01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:37,680 when they hadn't quite yet made the break yet, 1365 01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:40,640 when they were still kind of a punk band. 1366 01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:43,560 [Dr. Know] That shit was punk rock. 1367 01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:45,160 [laughs] 1368 01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:48,120 We had something to do with that 1369 01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:50,360 because it was the message 1370 01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:52,760 and the music, 1371 01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:57,120 and then the speed. 1372 01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:00,280 We saw that a lot of people believed in us 1373 01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:02,120 and supported us, 1374 01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:05,360 and kept on coming, and coming, and coming. 1375 01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:09,840 And eventually, the kids would sell out. 1376 01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:11,240 [Jesse Malin] Max's, at that point, 1377 01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:14,040 became the foundation 1378 01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:17,160 for the early, early versions of hardcore, 1379 01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:20,200 along with CBGB's, which was having hardcore matinees. 1380 01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:22,520 But Peter was booking them at nighttime. 1381 01:08:22,559 --> 01:08:25,520 [Jimi LaLumia] Glenn Danzig gives full hosannas 1382 01:08:25,559 --> 01:08:26,840 to Max's and to Crowley 1383 01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:32,680 for allowing the misfits to cut their teeth at Max's. 1384 01:08:32,719 --> 01:08:34,080 [Steven Bush] So in some ways, 1385 01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:35,920 you could say that the whole hardcore, 1386 01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:39,840 New York hardcore scene, really starts at Max's. 1387 01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:41,319 And it's very true. 1388 01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:44,920 The final days of Max's was the earliest days of hardcore. 1389 01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:47,200 And the hardcore scene was beginning in New York, 1390 01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:50,319 and my band, Heart Attack, put out a record, God is dead. 1391 01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:52,040 And I was going to junior high school, 1392 01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:54,680 but all my friends in the Boroughs were making bands. 1393 01:08:54,719 --> 01:08:57,200 Before CBGB's would do the hardcore matinees, 1394 01:08:57,240 --> 01:08:58,800 Max's was accepting it. 1395 01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:00,880 [hardcore music playing] 1396 01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:04,479 [applause] 1397 01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:09,280 [rock music playing] 1398 01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:19,880 [Billy Idol] When I actually came to live in New York, 1399 01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,880 in March of '81, I did hang out at Max's. 1400 01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:26,520 After a few months of living there, 1401 01:09:26,559 --> 01:09:28,000 I gradually met Steve Stevens, 1402 01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:29,800 and we started to put a band together. 1403 01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:31,319 We had a drummer, Steve Missal. 1404 01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:33,639 When he said, "Tonight I'm playing, 1405 01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:35,960 "it's the closing night of Max's. 1406 01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:39,719 Max's is closing, I'm in one of the bands they're playing," 1407 01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:44,200 I said, "Can we jump up and play before or after you play, 1408 01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:45,719 or something, or before you?" 1409 01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:48,800 And he said, "We could get up and play a couple of tunes." 1410 01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:52,160 [Billy Idol] And we played Dancing With Myself. 1411 01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:55,240 We played about four or five songs. 1412 01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:58,440 And I could see the minute that we got on 1413 01:09:58,480 --> 01:10:01,840 people going, "Fuck, it's Billy Idol." 1414 01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:04,160 There I was on the stage, 1415 01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,480 where people like Alan Vega and Martin Rev of Suicide 1416 01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:08,800 had been on that stage. 1417 01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:10,800 A lot of my heroes, the music I loved 1418 01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:12,880 that came out of New York had been on that stage. 1419 01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:15,880 It was my way of saying "thanks" by getting up there 1420 01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:17,639 and doing this jump up, and sort of, in a way, 1421 01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:19,920 cementing myself a little bit 1422 01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:22,920 in with the Max's history, in a way. 1423 01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,480 So I knew, man, this is the last night. 1424 01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:27,719 And it did, it shut the next day. 1425 01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:31,160 That was, I believe, the last show of the-- 1426 01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,920 before Max's closed, and it was our first show. 1427 01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:37,080 You'd go from CB's to Max's, 1428 01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:39,080 it didn't really matter who was playing. 1429 01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:41,920 You just went anyway, 1430 01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:44,400 especially if they let you in for free. 1431 01:10:44,440 --> 01:10:49,360 And Peter Crowley was nice enough to let me in for free. 1432 01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:51,880 Because Birdland played there a lot, 1433 01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:54,200 and the Rattlers played there a lot. 1434 01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:57,200 The Rattlers was actually the very last band 1435 01:10:57,240 --> 01:10:59,559 to play on the stage at Max's. 1436 01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:01,440 And I think that's a huge honor, 1437 01:11:01,480 --> 01:11:04,480 because Max's does not get enough acknowledgment 1438 01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:08,080 for all the bands that broke out of there. 1439 01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:14,520 [Donna Destri] My friend Dorothy, one night, 1440 01:11:14,559 --> 01:11:18,200 fell asleep upstairs under a booth. 1441 01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:20,240 OK, she was really wasted, 1442 01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:23,360 and she fell asleep, and she came walking down, 1443 01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:26,840 early in the morning, while they were still counting the money. 1444 01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:30,440 And I was asleep in the car, waiting for Michael, 1445 01:11:30,480 --> 01:11:32,600 and she said-- she walked down the steps 1446 01:11:32,639 --> 01:11:35,280 and all of a sudden, all the guns went up. 1447 01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:40,120 So, yeah, they were doing something shady, come on. 1448 01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:41,920 [laughs] 1449 01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:43,840 [Peter Crowley] Second mistake, 1450 01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:46,719 which brought down the whole house of cards: 1451 01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:50,920 Laura went to the gift shop in Atlantic City, 1452 01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:54,639 bought a purse, and paid with a bad 100. 1453 01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:58,280 And they remembered who passed that bad 100, 1454 01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:00,120 and she got arrested, 1455 01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:02,000 and they were going to prosecute her. 1456 01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:05,520 Tommy went to the prosecuting attorney and said, 1457 01:12:05,559 --> 01:12:09,280 "If you let her go with no charges, 1458 01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:12,880 I'll plead guilty to whatever you want me to plead guilty to." 1459 01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:17,280 So he went away to the country club prison for four years 1460 01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:18,639 in the 80s, 1461 01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:22,480 and the sad part is while he was in there, Laura died. 1462 01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:26,960 In '81, the final blow to Max's 1463 01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:30,160 was he needed money 1464 01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:34,520 to pay back the guys in Atlantic City. 1465 01:12:34,559 --> 01:12:36,680 And you have to pay them. 1466 01:12:36,719 --> 01:12:39,360 And the only way he could get that kind of money, 1467 01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:42,559 in legitimate money, was to sell the building. 1468 01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:45,600 I had made him so much money in the 70s 1469 01:12:45,639 --> 01:12:48,480 that he was able to buy the Max's building. 1470 01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:51,040 And he owned it outright, no mortgage or anything. 1471 01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:54,080 The woman who owned the office building next door 1472 01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:58,000 wanted desperately to have Max's gone 1473 01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:00,200 because of the broken glass, vomit, 1474 01:13:00,240 --> 01:13:02,760 and whatever that was there every morning. 1475 01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:04,480 And so Tommy went to her and said, 1476 01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:06,240 "If you give me a million dollars, 1477 01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:09,880 I'll give you the business and the building." 1478 01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:12,280 And she said, "OK." 1479 01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:15,960 He peeled off a million, he went and paid off 1480 01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:19,360 the boys in Atlantic City. 1481 01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:22,760 And that was the end of Max's Kansas City 1482 01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:25,280 and put me in the street. 1483 01:13:28,639 --> 01:13:31,320 [rock music playing] 1484 01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:35,000 [Jimi LaLumia] Max's does not get the due that it's deserved. 1485 01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:38,600 Max's closed at the dawn of the 80s. 1486 01:13:38,639 --> 01:13:40,639 CBGB'S remained open. 1487 01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:44,840 Hilly stayed in business for another 20 years 1488 01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:49,160 and was able to stay in the public eye, 1489 01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:52,320 whereas Max's died in the end of '81. 1490 01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:57,120 By default, CBGB's became the punk place 1491 01:13:57,160 --> 01:13:58,960 for the MTV generation. 1492 01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:01,639 Max's unfortunately was cut out of that equation. 1493 01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:04,080 [Denise Mercedes] Max's was very unique 1494 01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:07,600 because it allowed the diversity of acts, 1495 01:14:07,639 --> 01:14:09,840 of humans, to come together, 1496 01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:12,280 no matter what you were trying to do. 1497 01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:17,320 We had the platform and the ability to experiment on stage, 1498 01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:20,719 bring our best, see what happened. 1499 01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:25,160 And we were all there: gay, straight, Asian, Black, 1500 01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:27,680 Hispanic, White... Who wasn't there? 1501 01:14:27,719 --> 01:14:29,840 We were all there, 1502 01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:31,760 kicking ass on that fucking stage. 1503 01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:33,680 [Sonny Vincent] We had some managers back then 1504 01:14:33,719 --> 01:14:35,880 and they said, "Oh, Sonny, drink this before you go on stage, 1505 01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:37,200 it'll cut the edge." 1506 01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:38,960 Well, after a while, I was really cutting the edge. 1507 01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:41,880 And I told Gene, "Oh, we're not going to play the first song. 1508 01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:43,200 Let's start with the second song." 1509 01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:44,360 And I told the drummer, Gregory, 1510 01:14:44,400 --> 01:14:46,200 "We're not going to play the first song, 1511 01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:47,680 let's start with the third song." 1512 01:14:47,719 --> 01:14:49,400 And then I started with the eighth song, 1513 01:14:49,440 --> 01:14:51,639 and there was this din of noise, and the audience loved it, 1514 01:14:51,680 --> 01:14:53,360 and I was going, "Wow, this is so great. 1515 01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:54,960 I can do what I want." 1516 01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:56,200 [Harley Flanagan] I'll tell you man, 1517 01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:57,880 Max's was a really crazy place. 1518 01:14:57,920 --> 01:14:59,840 You can only imagine what it was like for me. 1519 01:14:59,880 --> 01:15:03,760 I was 12, and you got people like Johnny Thunders 1520 01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:07,320 stumbling down the steps from the dressing room 1521 01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:09,200 with, like, a syringe hanging out of his arm, 1522 01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:12,160 and talking about, "Are we on yet?" 1523 01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:13,680 I mean, total debauchery. 1524 01:15:13,719 --> 01:15:14,960 [Nick Marden] Crazy people there, 1525 01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,280 crazier people, or flashier people, 1526 01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:21,080 or on other nights, it was just the regular people. 1527 01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:25,080 Which, for the Max's crew, that could be anybody. 1528 01:15:25,120 --> 01:15:26,520 [Phil Caivano] I think in a lot of ways, 1529 01:15:26,559 --> 01:15:29,400 Max's was more important than CBGB's, 1530 01:15:29,440 --> 01:15:32,719 because of the lineage of the history of it. 1531 01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:35,639 It was all, like, this line that went back 1532 01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:37,200 to the Velvet Underground, 1533 01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:40,639 and that was the club that I had in my brain, 1534 01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:43,880 from the magazines, from the stories, 1535 01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:47,240 from records, from songs, 1536 01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:49,760 from print. 1537 01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:52,320 That's why it was so important to me, 1538 01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:53,800 and that's why I loved it so much. 1539 01:15:53,840 --> 01:15:55,639 [Alice Cooper] Back at Max's Kansas City, 1540 01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:58,040 there were a million ideas launched back there, 1541 01:15:58,080 --> 01:16:00,240 in that back, because there was so much creativity 1542 01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:02,480 in that room back there. 1543 01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:04,280 Remember this, 1544 01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:06,800 if you forget everything else. 1545 01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:11,320 They were all stoned, all the time. 1546 01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:14,480 And this is the Clash and the Sex Pistols, 1547 01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:19,600 and Sid, and Malcolm, and me, and Susie. 1548 01:16:20,480 --> 01:16:21,880 Everyone. 1549 01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:25,360 David Bowie, Gene Pitney, to Mick Jagger-- 1550 01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:27,880 Mick Jagger, the Rolling Stones. 1551 01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:30,400 Wherever they were, they were all high 1552 01:16:30,440 --> 01:16:32,360 all the time. 1553 01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:33,639 Everyone was high. 1554 01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:35,840 No one was straight ever. 1555 01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:41,240 [rock music playing] 1556 01:16:47,639 --> 01:16:50,120 [Elliott Murphy] So Max's was really, for me... 1557 01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:52,360 You know, there's the whole art side of Max's too, 1558 01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:54,480 and the Andy Warhol side, 1559 01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:56,160 but from the music side, 1560 01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:58,520 Max's played a very important part 1561 01:16:58,559 --> 01:17:00,880 in the Golden Age of music. 1562 01:17:00,920 --> 01:17:05,120 And I'm very grateful to both Mickey Ruskin 1563 01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:07,920 and Tommy Dean for all the... 1564 01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:12,520 for how much attention they paid to that, you know. 1565 01:17:12,559 --> 01:17:15,639 [Alice Cooper] I was having the most fun I've ever had 1566 01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:19,280 and being-- it was part of the Alice Cooper thing. 1567 01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:20,800 It helped me create. 1568 01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:24,160 Max's Kansas City helped me create a lot of things. 1569 01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:27,400 [Jayne County] The legacy of Max's lives on. 1570 01:17:27,440 --> 01:17:31,680 In one way or another, Max's legacy lives on. 1571 01:17:31,719 --> 01:17:33,680 It'll never die, really, 1572 01:17:33,719 --> 01:17:35,880 because Max's, it's like-- 1573 01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:41,400 it's like Paris was in the 20s, or Berlin was in the 30s, 1574 01:17:41,440 --> 01:17:43,480 or England was in the 60s. 1575 01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:47,360 Max's in the 70s was, like, famous. 1576 01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:50,280 It's going to be always remembered. 1577 01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:54,639 It's going to be written about and filmed about always. 1578 01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:56,440 [Harley Flanagan] I'm up on stage playing, and I'm like, 1579 01:17:56,480 --> 01:18:00,719 "Give me a Coke! Get me a Coke," meaning a Coca-Cola, 1580 01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:05,200 and half the crowd thought I was yelling "Coke" like cocaine. 1581 01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:07,080 I mean, this is the fucking mentality 1582 01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:09,800 of how depraved this shit was. 1583 01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:11,800 [Jesse Malin] The thing about Max's II for us 1584 01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:14,280 was kids could play there, or even go to shows there. 1585 01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:16,240 You felt like you were really part of history. 1586 01:18:16,280 --> 01:18:18,559 You'd seen it in the magazines, you knew the iconic ad 1587 01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:20,280 that was in the paper, that strip ad. 1588 01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:22,440 To see your name in it, in the Village Voice, 1589 01:18:22,480 --> 01:18:23,840 it really meant something. 1590 01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:25,920 It felt like you were part of something. 1591 01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:28,760 [Ruby Lynn Reyner] I, like-- Mr. T used to say, 1592 01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:32,840 "I pity the poor fools that don't have Max's Kansas City." 1593 01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:37,280 Because Max's Kansas City was a once in a lifetime experience. 1594 01:18:37,320 --> 01:18:39,719 [Steven Bush] You're asking why all these really cool shows 1595 01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:43,120 of soon-to-be stars were happening there, 1596 01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:46,719 and there's your answer: it really was the place to be. 1597 01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:49,200 [Nick Marden] There would be an energy there. 1598 01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:51,440 And some nights it would be a bummer energy, 1599 01:18:51,480 --> 01:18:53,960 it'd be like real heavy junky energy. 1600 01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:57,120 Other nights it would be this weird aggro energy. 1601 01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:58,840 Other nights, it would be a mellow thing. 1602 01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:01,680 But there was always something percolating there, 1603 01:19:01,719 --> 01:19:03,880 as opposed to other places, where you'd just sit down 1604 01:19:03,920 --> 01:19:05,800 and drink and leave. 1605 01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:07,880 [Harley Flanagan] A lot of good times, though. 1606 01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:10,559 I saw some great fucking bands at Max's. 1607 01:19:11,440 --> 01:19:14,320 And it was really cool to... 1608 01:19:15,280 --> 01:19:18,960 I should say, it isreally cool to have played there. 1609 01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:22,480 It was a great piece in New York history. 1610 01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:26,040 [Denise Mercedes] Without Peter Crowley, without Max's, 1611 01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:28,600 I can't imagine what the New York music scene, 1612 01:19:28,639 --> 01:19:31,240 what the music world would have lost. 1613 01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:33,600 That was my first gig in America, really. 1614 01:19:33,639 --> 01:19:36,320 It was at Max's Kansas City on their last night. 1615 01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:39,400 [Alice Cooper] It's an era gone by. 1616 01:19:39,440 --> 01:19:41,280 It's a place that's gone by. 1617 01:19:41,320 --> 01:19:44,960 And it will always be a place that's almost like... 1618 01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:49,880 Everybody wanted to at least be there once. 1619 01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:51,040 You know, they go, 1620 01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:52,840 "That must have been spectacular!" 1621 01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:54,320 And I go, "It was." 1622 01:19:56,600 --> 01:20:00,280 ["Leave My Pussy Alone" by Jayne County and Jimi LaLumia plays] 1623 01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:06,559 ♪ In the name of science There's nothing you won't do ♪ 1624 01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:08,920 ♪ You think you have the right But it's wrong ♪ 1625 01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:10,559 ♪ You know that's true 1626 01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:13,280 ♪ Killing, scarring, torturing The ones that can't fight back ♪ 1627 01:20:13,320 --> 01:20:15,120 ♪ We'll do their fighting For them ♪ 1628 01:20:15,160 --> 01:20:16,800 ♪ You'll get a big payback 1629 01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:20,240 ♪ Keep your hands off my pussy Don't you mess with my pussy ♪ 1630 01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:22,840 ♪ Just leave my pussy alone 1631 01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:25,320 ♪ Not tonight with my pussy 1632 01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:29,559 ♪ It ain't right with my pussy Just leave my pussy alone ♪ 1633 01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:35,680 ♪ Yeah Leave my pussy alone ♪ 1634 01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:40,600 ♪ In the name of profit You're monsters on the loose ♪ 1635 01:20:40,639 --> 01:20:42,760 ♪ You've crossed the line Too many times ♪ 1636 01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:44,360 ♪ Your neck is in the noose 1637 01:20:44,400 --> 01:20:46,320 ♪ You slash their throats You stab their eyes ♪ 1638 01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:47,920 ♪ You lead them to their doom 1639 01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,840 ♪ Just so that some old bitch Gets to test a new perfume ♪ 1640 01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:52,920 ♪ So keep your hands Off my pussy ♪ 1641 01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:57,400 ♪ Don't you mess with my pussy Just leave my pussy alone ♪ 1642 01:20:57,440 --> 01:20:59,800 ♪ Don't you stare at my pussy 1643 01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:03,680 ♪ Don't you dare with my pussy Just leave my pussy alone ♪ 1644 01:21:03,719 --> 01:21:08,360 [instrumental] 1645 01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:14,960 ♪ In the name of justice We're knocking down your door ♪ 1646 01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,080 ♪ We'll chain ourselves We'll paint ourselves ♪ 1647 01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:18,559 ♪ We'll nail you to the floor 1648 01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:20,280 ♪ We'll spray paint All your furs ♪ 1649 01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:22,120 ♪ We'll boycott All your stores ♪ 1650 01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:25,080 ♪ Until you get the message We won't take this anymore ♪ 1651 01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:27,120 ♪ So keep your hands off my pussy ♪ 1652 01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:31,360 ♪ Don't you mess with my pussy Just leave my pussy alone ♪ 1653 01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:33,719 ♪ Not tonight with my pussy 1654 01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:38,280 ♪ It ain't right with my pussy Just leave my pussy alone ♪ 1655 01:21:38,320 --> 01:21:40,719 ♪ So keep your hands Off my pussy ♪ 1656 01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:45,240 ♪ Don't you mess with my pussy Just leave my pussy alone ♪ 1657 01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:47,600 ♪ Don't you stare at my pussy 1658 01:21:47,639 --> 01:21:52,160 ♪ Don't you dare with my pussy Just leave my pussy alone ♪ 1659 01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:57,480 ♪ Yeah, pick on somebody Your own species ♪ 1660 01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:10,360 ["Max's Kansas City" by The Electric Chairs plays] 1661 01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:29,760 ♪ Take a tip from me 1662 01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:32,800 ♪ And get ready For the big parade ♪ 1663 01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:37,160 ♪ It's the place to be 1664 01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:40,320 ♪ Every night's A happy holiday ♪ 1665 01:22:42,440 --> 01:22:47,160 ♪ The kids are jumping around Everybody's doing loop de loop ♪ 1666 01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:51,840 ♪ Just a making the rounds 1667 01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:55,360 ♪ Like a speed freak In a telephone booth ♪ 1668 01:22:57,320 --> 01:22:59,240 ♪ The downstairs is packed 1669 01:22:59,280 --> 01:23:02,240 ♪ And the groupies Are all dressed up ♪ 1670 01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:07,160 ♪ Upstairs the New York Dolls 1671 01:23:07,200 --> 01:23:11,200 ♪ Are kickin' it out Looking tough ♪ 1672 01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:14,520 ♪ You've got a Personality crisis, baby ♪ 1673 01:23:16,680 --> 01:23:18,559 ♪ Down at Max's 1674 01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:20,600 ♪ Max's Kansas City 1675 01:23:20,639 --> 01:23:24,040 -♪ All the boys are -♪ At Max's Kansas City 1676 01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:27,760 -♪ All the girls are -♪ At Max's Kansas City 1677 01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:30,960 -♪ All the kids are -♪ At Max's Kansas City 1678 01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:33,600 ♪ Down at Max's 1679 01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:38,280 ♪ I see Patti Smith 1680 01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:41,840 ♪ She's the Stagger Lee Of rock 'n' roll ♪ 1681 01:23:43,520 --> 01:23:45,920 ♪ She threw a seven and eleven 1682 01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:49,320 ♪ And she always knows Which parts to hold ♪ 1683 01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:53,719 ♪ And I see Lou Reed And Iggy Pop ♪ 1684 01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:57,400 ♪ There just to get Higher and higher ♪ 1685 01:23:58,400 --> 01:24:00,480 ♪ Go get them boys One more drink ♪ 1686 01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:03,880 ♪ And they're going to set The place on fire ♪ 1687 01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:05,559 ♪ Go get 'em boys 1688 01:24:05,600 --> 01:24:07,840 ♪ The downstairs is packed 1689 01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:10,880 ♪ And the groupies Are all dressed up ♪ 1690 01:24:12,719 --> 01:24:15,400 ♪ Upstairs the New York Dolls 1691 01:24:15,440 --> 01:24:19,360 ♪ Are kickin' it out Looking tough ♪ 1692 01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:24,040 ♪ Bad girls just a lookin' For a kiss ♪ 1693 01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:29,120 -♪ Down at Max's -♪ Max's Kansas City 1694 01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:33,040 -♪ All the boys are -♪ At Max's Kansas City